In another photo taken at Abscon, RE8 4889 (actually D4889) stands on the airfield with the cité ouvrière and the spire of Abscon church in the background. Pilot and observer are in position, as is the Lewis gun on the Scarff ring – but so are the wheel-chocks. And there are no ground crew in evidence, so this looks like a posed photo.
RE8 4889 (D4889) – squadron number B1 – at Abscon. Click for larger image. Credit: Air Force Museum of New Zealand
RE8 4889
In January 1919, RE8 4889 was in a scruffy state. Scratches, patches and scuff marks are all over it. It used to be pristine. In fact, this is the shiny state in which we saw the same aircraft previously. In the post for 27 August 1918 it was pictured with Capt. Bill Ledlie standing proprietorially in front of the gleaming aircraft:
Capt. Bill Ledlie, CO B Flight, 42 Sqn RAF, standing in front of RE8 4889 (D4889), squadron number B1. Click for larger image. Credit: Greg’s War Collection
In this older photograph (probably taken at Rely, to where 42 Squadron had moved on 25 April 1918) the aircraft was clearly pretty new. It had been built by Napier and delivered to the squadron on 8 July 1918. It stayed with them until 28 January 1919. On that day Lt Judd ferried 4889 to St Omer, where 13 Squadron took charge of it. It had survived its time of active war service without major incident.
Possibly 4889 was the aircraft that Capt. Ledlie often flew. The squadron designation was ‘B1’, and Capt. Ledlie was the flight commander of ‘B’ flight. So he might have been the pilot in the photo at Abscon. But Capt. Ledlie didn’t have exclusive use of it. For instance, Greg flew 4889 on 6 October 1918 and 7 October 1918. More likely, since the photograph came from Lt McDermont, who later emigrated to New Zealand, it was he who was the pilot in the January 1919 photo.
The Abscon RE8 Photographs
This photograph is one of a series of aeroplanes and crew taken – probably at least semi-officially – at Abscon. Two others have been posted in previous weeks, one (of 2872) from Greg’s collection and one (of 2924) from the Air Force Museum of New Zealand, as this one was.
No doubt there are others in museums and dusty attics around the world. And more still that have been lost or destroyed.
Abscon Church
In the January 1919 photograph of 4889, the stubby spire of Abscon church rises above the house behind the tail of the aircraft. That church is now gone. According to French Wikipedia:
The old church, built in 1892 and closed to worship in July 1969 because of mining subsidence, was replaced by a new building inaugurated in 1981.
It was the stubbiness of this spire that made me think that the spire in the photograph in the post for 28 December 1918 was probably not Abscon’s, but more likely to be that of Saultain:
Today was the day the fighting stopped. It was also the day of Greg’s last flight in wartime, a joyride with an intriguing passenger. Was “Norman” Norman Gregory? And the day of his first post-armistice flight: travelling from Ascq to Marquain Aerodrome, over the Belgian border near Tournai. Meanwhile, the King sends his thanks to the Royal Air Force. And we give a quick preview of Michael Seymour’s new ‘Setting the Scene’ article: ‘When the Guns Fell Silent‘.
Log Book
Date: 11.11.18
Time Out: 10.25
Rounds Fired – Lewis: -
Rounds Fired – Vickers: -
Bombs: -
Time on RE8s: 190 hrs 40 mins
RE8: 2517
Observer: Norman
War Flying: 0 hrs 10 mins
Height: 1000
Course/Remarks: Joyride
Date: 11.11.18
Time Out: 2.00
Rounds Fired – Lewis: -
Rounds Fired – Vickers: -
Bombs: -
Time on RE8s: 190 hrs 45 mins
RE8: 2517
Observer: A.M. Rose
War Flying: 0 hrs 05 mins
Height: 100
Course/Remarks: Travelling to Marquain
B Flight Orders
B FLIGHT ORDERS FOR 10.11.1918
2872 0800 Lt Bon Capt Gordon Reconn.
6740 1100 Lt Judd Lt Elliott – do -
4889 1400 Lt Sewell Lt Whittles – do -
2517 Lt Gregory Lt Bett Next job
All officers’ kits to be packed and outside the mess by 8.15.
No breakfast to be served after 0700.
C.E. Gregory, Lt
for O.C. B Flight
So Lt Bon and Capt Gordon had a pre-armistice reconnaissance patrol at 8:00am. And at 11:00am, Lt Judd and Lt Elliott went up to reconnoitre the situation as the armistice came into effect.
Who was ‘Norman’?
Greg’s first flight of the day was a 10 minute joyride with “Norman” as an observer/passenger. It is recorded in his log book but was not mandated in the day’s orders for the flight, which Greg signed. So who was this Norman who went on this brief and unofficial flight, just half an hour before the armistice?
According to Cross & Cockade’s list of first world war officers in 42 Squadron RAF, there was none whose surname was Norman. There was a George Norman Goldie, but he does not seem to have been in B Flight, and Greg has never mentioned him. In any event, this George Norman Goldie does not appear on a list of B Flight officers dating from December 1918. And, all other things being equal, he was more likely to have been known to his familiars as George rather than Norman.
A more intriguing – and certainly more poetic – theory is that “Norman” was Lt Norman Gregory, Greg’s brother.
Norman Gregory
Lt. Norman Gregory RE, an elder brother of Greg, who may have been the ‘Norman’ in today’s joyride. Click for larger image. Credit: Greg’s War Collection.
Norman Gregory was born in 1894 and would have been 24 in November 1918. He was a lieutenant – a proper, two-pip lieutenant, not a second lieutenant – in the Royal Engineers. His available war records are sparse, but we know that he entered the French theatre of war on 21 July 1918. So maybe Norman found himself near Lille and called in to see his baby brother at Ascq. And perhaps in those heady minutes before it all ended, they went up for a quick spin.
If they did, and if their mother knew, she would probably have been horrified. To have three sons in the war – one in each of the three services – was bad enough. But for two of them to go up voluntarily together in one of those dangerous contraptions at the last minute was…well, probably something she didn’t need to be told about until they could laugh about it later.
In fact, they were nowhere near danger, at least danger in the sense of German guns and aeroplanes. Even if they had flown flat out east for five minutes, they would have not have been halfway to the front line before they had to turn back.
A Working Hypothesis
Whether this is the true explanation of who “Norman” was, we will probably never know. But it has a strong draw at least for me, as I rather like the idea of my grandfather taking my great uncle up for a little caper in the air as his last flight before the armistice. And one further, but admittedly tiny, piece of evidence that Norman was someone quite familiar, is that his is the only “observer” on that page of Greg’s log book whose name is written in cursive script rather than block capitals.
Greg’s ‘observers’ in November 1918. ‘Norman’ is the only one in cursive script. Click for larger image.
So my conjecture is that it was Norman Gregory that Greg took for a joyride, and that can stand until better evidence refutes the theory.
The Final Front Lines
Front Lines on 11 November. Click for larger image. Map credit: Map Archive
We used to be able to refer to Greg’s sector confidently as the Lys sector, until his squadron no longer operated along the River Lys. This was as forces advanced east to the the next river – the River Scheldt – and beyond. But whatever the sector was called by 11 November, the ground troops of General Birdwood‘s Fifth Army had moved beyond Ath. In fact they had almost reached Grammont and Soignies, which are closer to Brussels than they are to Lille. And here the line was drawn on Armistice Day.
42 Squadron Moves to Marquain Aerodrome
Greg’s second flight of the day was a travelling flight, as part of the squadron’s move that day. (This was why kit had to be packed up and no late breakfasts were served.) After the guns had stopped, Greg and Air Mechanic Rose flew the 7 miles (11 km) to Marquain Aerodrome, just to the west of Tournai. It took them 5 minutes. At 100 ft, they were practically skimming the hedges. And so it was that Greg and the rest of 42 Squadron ended up in Belgium on Armistice Day.
Ascq to Marquain on a modern map (courtesy Google). Click to go to Google maps.
The King’s Message
Meanwhile, the King sent his thanks to his newly formed, and newly tested, Royal Air Force. This printed copy of his message is at the Royal Air Force Museum, Hendon (behind glass, hence the reflections):
The King’s Message to the RAF. Click for larger image. Photograph of printed copy at the RAF Museum, Hendon.
When the Guns Fell Silent
Michael Seymour has written a new article for today in the ‘Setting the Scene’ series. In it, Michael reflects on the circumstances of the signing of the armistice, and surveys some of the consequences of the new-found peace:
Although this post marks the end of Greg’s wartime activity, it doesn’t – quite – mark the end of the Greg’s War blog. As will become apparent, Greg didn’t go home until the new year. Before then, the squadron made three more moves. And there were new photos to be taken, there were joyrides to be had and crashes to be avoided (sometimes). And of course there was Christmas to be celebrated. So there will be more posts to come, but they won’t be daily, and they will no longer involve the activities that were the core of Greg’s war flying since the beginning of June. No more counter-battery patrols, and no more shoots.
The next entry in Greg’s log book is for 20 November 1918.
42 Squadron RAF only arrived at Ascq Aerodrome on 22 October 1918, and would be leaving in three days time. Among Greg’s collection are two photographs of him and a few fellow officers, taken on the airfield, with some still identifiable houses behind them. Meanwhile, the everyday business of B Flight – reconnaissance and counter-battery patrols and a shoot – continues. As it turned out, these would be the last counter-battery patrol and the last shoot flown by the flight in the war. Greg did not fly today.
B Flight Orders
B FLIGHT ORDERS FOR 8.11.1918:-
2707 10.00 12.30 Lt Judd Lt Elliott RECON & CBP
4889 when fit Lt Bon Capt Gordon SHOOT
Lt Sewell Lt Whittles NEXT JOB
Lt Wallington Lt Bett - do –
E27 will be ready to leave the ground at 630.
Wm. Ledlie, Capt.
Ascq Aerodrome
The Anciens Aerodromes website pinpoints the site of Ascq aerodrome as being just south of the junction of the Rue des Fusilés and the Rue de la Tradition/Rue Gaston Baratte. The road junction is itself only a few hundred yards/metres southwest of the centre ville of Ascq itself, as can be seen on this embedded Google map:
Today, the site of the airfield is mostly an industrial estate, with a bit of scrubland and some allotment land – with what looks like an asparagus bed on the right! –
The site of Ascq aerodrome, June 2018. Looking south from the Rue de la Tradition towards the marker in the Google map, above. Click for larger image.
Photos with the Rue des Fusilés in the Background
Here are the two photographs of Greg and others. They are taken with buildings on the Rue des Fusilés being visible behind them.
The first:
Greg (second from left, front row) and others on the airfield at Ascq. Third from left in the front row is probably Capt. Bill Ledlie. Click for larger image. Credit: Greg’s War Collection
The houses on the left of the group are still there, on the Rue des Fusilés, although somewhat altered and built around:
Houses on the Rue des Fusilés in June 2018. The cream house on the left and the red-roofed building, since refashioned but recognisable by its chimneys, were there in 1918. Click for larger image
And the second, probably taken on the same occasion:
Greg (on the right in the back row) and others on the airfield at Ascq. Seated in the middle in the in the front row is Capt. Bill Ledlie. Click for larger image. Credit: Greg’s War Collection
Note the house with the patterned roof, visible between the observer standing on the left and other other five. It is still quite conspicuous on the Rue des Fusilés:
House with pattered roof on the Rue des Fusilés in June 2018. Click for larger image
Although Greg was not flying again today, it was business as usual for B Flight, 42 Squadron RAF at Ascq. Reconnaissance and counter-battery patrols and shoots were in today’s daily orders. An apparent dual role for Lt Sewell is resolved.
B Flight Orders
B FLIGHT ORDERS FOR 7.11.1918
2517 6.0 830 Lt Wallington Lt Bett Recon & CBP
4889 1200 1430 Lt Bon Capt Gordon – do –
6740 Lt Sewell Lt Sewell Shoot
2707 Lt Judd Lt Whittles do
E27 Capt Ledlie Lt Paton do
Lt Mulholland
Pilots and observers who have not passed all tests will please arrange to do so tomorrow.
The early machine will send down a weather report at 6.45 so that, if fit, the people on shoots can get into the air without any loss of time.
W. Ledlie, Capt.
There are obviously a couple of mistakes here. I have corrected Capt. Ledlie’s implication that he himself was still a lieutenant. But then there is Lt. Sewell’s designation as both pilot and observer in 6740! Judging from other entries in the B Flight Orders, he was in fact a pilot. And he often flew with Lt Whittles as observer. So probably Lt Sewell’s name should just be deleted from the observer’s column, and those named beneath him shunted up.
Lt Denis Charles Sewell
Lt Denis Charles Sewell was born on 31 October 1898. Prior to being commissioned as a 2nd lieutenant in 42 Sqn, he was in the Honourable Artillery Company.
‘Tests’
The nature of the ‘tests’ that both pilots and observers must pass is not explained.
It was another non-flying day for Greg, but today we can see why. For the last few days of the war, we have copies of the daily orders for B Flight, 42 Squadron RAF. And today’s entry shows that Greg was the first reserve pilot on the list for any job that fell due after the already scheduled reconnaissance flights and shoots. As it turned out, he stayed on the ground.
B Flight Orders
B Flight Orders
B FLIGHT ORDERS FOR 6.11.1918
2707 0800.1030 Lt Sewell Lt Whittles RECON.
6740 1400.DUSK Lt Judd Lt Elliott - do –
E27 Capt. Ledlie Lt Mulholland SHOOT
4889 Lt Bon Capt. Gordon - do –
Lt Wallington Lt. Bett - do –
Lt Gregory
Wm. Ledlie, Capt
Presumably other flights from the squadron will have fielded aircraft for further reconnaissance patrols and other jobs during the day.
The flight’s daily orders, and presumably those for the other flights, were nothing very grand. They were hand written and signed by the Officer Commanding the flight or his deputy. What we see above is evidently a carbon copy of the orders in Army Book 152, a correspondence book for field service. Probably a notice board or somewhere equally prominent displayed the original for all concerned to see.
As British ground forces closed in on Lille from the west, there was a need for up-to-date aerial photography of the approaches to the city, east of Armentières. Greg and Lt Thomas Whittles were despatched to take some.
Log Book
Date: 7.10.18
Time Out: 8.40
Rounds Fired – Lewis: -
Rounds Fired – Vickers: -
Bombs: -
Time on RE8s: 166 hrs 50 mins
RE8: 4889
Observer: Whittles
War Flying: 2 hrs 05 mins
Height: 9000
Course/Remarks: Photos. 30 plates exposed
Squadron Record Book
Squadron Record Book. Click for larger image.
Type and Number: R.E.8. 4889
Pilot and Observer: P. Lt Gregory. O. Lt Whittles
Duty: Photography
Hour of Start: 0840
Hour of Return: 1045
Remarks: 36 Plates exposed over P. & J. squares. Cable breaking, prevented further exposures.
A.A.active
Vis. Very misty. Height 9000 feet. Obs. by P.&.O.
Photography
The photography was over P and J squares: two 6,000 yard squares to the west of Lille, which amounted to just over 23 square miles (60 sq km)
Map showing P and J squares of Sheet 36. Adapted from a 1:40,000 scale map. Each numbered square is 1,000 yards. Click for larger image. Map credit IWM/TNA/GreatWarDigital.
The fact that it was misty but photographs were nonetheless demanded underlines the urgent need for them. No doubt there would have been more taken if the camera cable hadn’t broken.
Lt Thomas Whittles
We know little of Lt Thomas Whittles, Greg’s observer on this day (and no other). He was born 1891 and was in the Manchester Regiment before he joined the RAF (or possibly the RFC before it).
We do what he looked like, though, from a photo of him and Lt Ives taken in June 1918 before Lt Ives was posted back to the UK:
Lts Ives and Whittles in front of an RE8 at Rely, June 1918. Click for larger image.
That photo was was first published in this post for 29 June:
Meanwhile, the front was continuing its eastwards push, and was now east of Armentières:
The British Front east of Armentières on the evening of 7 October 1918. Adapted from a map accompanying General Haig’s despatches on the final British offensive. Click for larger image. Map credit: IWM/TNA/GreatWarDigital
In a sign of the changing fortunes of the war, Greg and Lt Scarterfield today had the task of locating battery positions. Nothing unusual about that, you may think, as locating hostile batteries in Counter Battery Patrols was a staple activity for corps squadrons such as 42 Squadron RAF. But the difference here was that the batteries being located were not hostile but friendly. The question being asked of the aircrew was: where have our artillery advanced to?
Log Book
Date: 6.10.18
Time Out: 8.50
Rounds Fired – Lewis: -
Rounds Fired – Vickers: -
Bombs: -
Time on RE8s: 164 hrs 45 mins
RE8: 4889
Observer: Scarterfield
War Flying: 1 hrs 35 mins
Height: 1000
Course/Remarks: Battery positions. Four found.
Although Greg’s log book doesn’t tell us where the batteries were, the Squadron Record Book does:
Squadron Record Book
Squadron Record Book. Click for larger image.
Type and Number: R.E.8.4889
Pilot and Observer: P. Lt Gregory. O. Lt Scarterfield
Duty: Reconnaissance
Hour of Start: 0850.
Hour of Return: 1025.
Remarks: Locating battery positions.
Ground strips at the following places.
S- H.17.d.4.4. )
P- H.28.d.5.6. )
F.J- H.3.c.5.5. ) Dropped at C.W.S
B.J. H.9.a.5.5. )
===
Returned owing to mist and rain.
Vis. fair. Height 1000 ft. Obs. by P.&.O.
The S, P, F.J and B.J would have been battery identification letters, marked out in ground strips, discussed in the background article on Shoots. “C.W.S.” is the Central Wireless Station, where the message containing the positions was dropped.
All the four battery locations were to the west and south of Armentières, as the following map shows:
Map showing battery positions on reconnaissance sortie. Adapted from a 1:40,000 scale map. Each numbered square is 1,000 yards. Click for larger image. Map credit IWM/TNA/GreatWarDigital.
Not many weeks before, all these positions were behind the German front line, which was here known to the British as the Estaires-Lys Line. The position in square H.28 was even behind the German second line (the Fleurbaix-Houplines Line).
Today, the battery positions in squares H.9 and H.17 are more or less on the path of the high speed rail line from Calais to Lille. The Eurostar trains smoothly race over a lot of history.
No flying for Greg today. As he wasn’t keeping up his diary any longer, we don’t know the reason. But we can take the opportunity of an off-day to look a little more at Bill Ledlie.
Captain William Ledlie RAF
Bill Ledlie was the Commanding Officer of B Flight, 42 Squadron RAF. In the post for 25 August 1918, a couple of days ago, he was to be seen sitting (in shorts!) front-and-centre of the group photographs of the B Flight officers.
Ledlie was an Ulsterman, born on 16 April 1894 according to the IWM’s Lives of the Great War, who attended Banbridge Academy. Banbridge is a town in County Down that grew wealthy on the linen industry. It is on the A1 between Lisburn and Belfast to the north, and Newry and Dublin to the south.
Ledlie was some five years older than Greg, and was his commanding officer. But the two became friendly, as evidenced by the several photographs of Ledlie in Greg’s collection.
Capt. Bill Ledlie, CO B Flight, 42 Sqn RAF, standing in front of an RE8 bearing (appropriately enough) the squadron marking B1 “somewhere in France”. Click for larger image. Photo credit: Greg’s War Collection.Capt. Bill Ledlie, “somewhere in France”. Click for larger image. Photo credit: Greg’s War Collection.Capt. Bill Ledlie, “somewhere in France”. Click for larger image. Photo credit: Greg’s War Collection.
After the War
Ledlie and Greg had apparently made some tentative plans for after the war. They would go into business together, drawing on their aviation skills, but nothing ever came of it.
Although Ledlie survived the Great War, he died during the Second World War on 23 October 1940 when co-piloting the sole example of a de Havilland DH.95 Hertfordshire, no. R2510. The Hertfordshire was the military transport variant of the de Havilland DH.95 Flamingo. The IWM has a photograph of this aircraft here.
The aircraft took off on a sortie to Belfast and was carrying a crew of five and six passengers. Shortly after taking off the aircraft crashed into some houses at Woodlands Way [sic, should be ‘Woodland Way’], Mill Hill, London and all those on board were killed. The aircraft was the sole Hertfordshire in use with the RAF and it was a military version of the Flamingo aircraft. No Accident card was found for this aircraft nor could any reference to the outcome of the Board of Enquiry be located. AVM Blount was AOC 22 Group at the time of his death and was on a scheduled flight to Belfast to discuss joint training exercises with the GOC Northern Ireland.
Wikipedia records that the cause of the crash was jamming of the elevator.
Woodland Way is a short residential road just over a mile (about 2 km) north of what was then RAF Hendon (now the site of the RAF Museum) by Mill Hill Broadway Railway Station and backing on to the M1 motorway:
